RetroBytes Portal
Programming => Manic Miner the Lost Levels => Topic started by: flash on August 15, 2009, 07:31:39 pm
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We have not posted anything yet as there really is not much to show..
The game has had about 5 hours work on it and at the moment all it has is a level, and a 'willy' that can run around and jump on things.
The idea of this game is to speed up Manic Miner and to add a little 'extra' to the game. At the moment the main work is on detection and the gameplay dynamics. We are not trying to reprogramme an exact MM on the DS, but to rather do a little bit of a Warhawk DS on the formula.
We will post here when there is more to show.
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OK, early screenshot..
Got a little problem with Vram allocation (sort later), but he runs around and jumps on stuff... Well, As I say, this is around 5 hours work.. LOL
ps. the background is just a placeholder for now...
Who knows if we will ever finish this.. hopefully, but there are other projects that perhaps our time is better invested. who knows?
(and it is still a pure ASM project - another reason for me 'at least' to start something else)
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Oh sh!t! - you've actually started that platformer.
I hope it takes a long time to do :D - I'd like to have Horace done before this one is done (...and so would you ;))
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And there was me remembering the time when we compared development times between UXB and Warhawk.. LOL
Don't worry mate, this is a low priority remake... So it may not be finished till way after UXB (or Horace)... don't panic ???
god - I love this homebrew stuff and now we have a true leader on the forum......
(And I actually mean that nicelly... honest)
Did you mention the beloved Horace? Hmmmmmmmmmm
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And there was me remembering the time when we compared development times between UXB and Warhawk.. LOL
Don't worry mate, this is a low priority remake... So it may not be finished till way after UXB (or Horace)... don't panic ???
god - I love this homebrew stuff and now we have a true leader on the forum......
(And I actually mean that nicelly... honest)
Did you mention the beloved Horace? Hmmmmmmmmmm
Of course you mean that nicely - it's yourself. You're coding in assembler...I'm only coding in Basic. You're the true leader here. ;)
But if this platformer is a low priority remake, what are you working on that is high priority? :)
Btw. Thanks for the scan. I just updated my site and used a bit of it. Saved me from having to scan it myself.
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Another quick screenshot. Just cleaned up a few of graphic glitches and made way for the bottom screen.
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Added music today (Mod Player) and sfx system :) I'm probably gonna end up writing a collision map editor soon and start The Detective Game project. It looks like we will end up having two games on the go ???
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I'm sorry honey... LOL
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I was actually thinking we should do the two projects side by side anyway. I just think we will get more done that way.
Were still not taking on as many projects as Sokurah though (yet) ;)
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Which type of music should I made? I gonna to starte somewhere original music for it. For tests versions I might use mp3 before creating mod/xm version of it.
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The music will be mod format,
I was thinking of a sped up/drummy version of the original 'hall of the mountain king'. This is available in lots of different mods, so there is a good starting point. Thanks so much for the offer SF!
This time we want to keep the file size as small as we can and avoid using efs, etc.
But.. we have quite a way to go before this is at all playable (though it is sorta fun at the moment). Who knows how long it will take to get things right.
One thing we want to make clear to all now, we are not remaking Manic Miner for the DS, we do not want everything to be exact and the same plodding speed. If you want a 100% copy of Manic Miner it is best to use an emulator. What we are after is a slightly jazzed-up version of the original with levels that were in the other releases (Oric, bbc, Archie, Dragon, etc). Hopefully this will also be a re-imagining in the same way as Warhawk DS was?
Who knows!
Hopefully we will be able to post a little single screen demo in a few days? It is all down to time and other commitments.
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then the music I create would been lossy based on it :-D as well, something like the style of High Tolerance found here: http://www.thephorse.net/beatclick/news/?page_id=37, but with a bit less techno as well.
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I have had a little bit of a play with the detection tonight, and it is much tighter, so much so that i added the crumble platforms. There is still work to do though.. but nothing major.
The next step after this is to add animation to the screen other than Willy himself. Make the colectables all flashy etc.
There are a few things in MM that I was never sure of, one is the jump/head detection. I don't want to change the mechanic too much, but... and follow me here...
If you jump right into a block of impassable blocks, the jump mechanic continues. i.e. you hit the wall and the jump continues it's phase and you slide down the wall, but if there is a gap, you can slide into it. but.. If you jump and your head hits an impassable block, the jump motion becomes a fall and you drop vertically. Shouldn't the jump continue on the vertical in the same way as horizontal?
Also, if you are walking through a tunnel of impassable blocks that is the same height as you and you keep jumping, the game will slow your progress as it activates and stops the jump code. Surely it should do nothing as a jump is not possible and you should be able to continue walking through? Well, this is what I have added to the code so far and it seems more natural, what do you think?
Anyway... The game is inching toward a demo version (only 8 hours spent on it from me. and perhaps the same from HK), so even at this early stage it is looking quite fun (and quicker).
We will create a sticky in this board as soon as we have playable code to share.
In the mean time, another bloody screenshot...
ps. a demo version without death or enemies will be made as we really need someone to check all the detection works as it should. Still need work on the jump (how many exact horizontal pixels is it?), I have the height fine though.
pps. We are pretty much using Andy's graphics as a bulding block.. This is hopefully a temporary thing for now... But at least it is a start and enables us to get the project underway - Sorry Andy!!!
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then the music I create would been lossy based on it :-D as well, something like the style of High Tolerance found here: http://www.thephorse.net/beatclick/news/?page_id=37, but with a bit less techno as well.
Your music is all good mate ;)
But.. It would be nice to have the 'feel' of the original music (hall of the mountain king) in the same way that you worked such fantastic magic on the Warhawk theme...
This is what we are using at the moment...
ps. Nice tune mate :) (High Tolerence)
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Were still not taking on as many projects as Sokurah though (yet) ;)
Well... we don't want to go silly do we... LOL
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Were still not taking on as many projects as Sokurah though (yet) ;)
Well... we don't want to go silly do we... LOL
Hey...I heard that. ;)
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And i whispered...
good grief, coding God, and ears of a God...
:)
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Your music is all good mate ;)
But.. It would be nice to have the 'feel' of the original music (hall of the mountain king) in the same way that you worked such fantastic magic on the Warhawk theme...
This is what we are using at the moment...
ps. Nice tune mate :) (High Tolerence)
It more the instrument and style of above tune, because it have somewhere classic style as well, debite the very much techno, some wrote in thier forum. But of course it would been changed to more classic notes using same chords (the above only use one chord, Cm, this one use a least 3). If theme on levels changes as well, the music should change a little bit as well (like the way Giana Sisters DS works).
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Thought i would see how it worked with the original level :)
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Would you consider having Willy be able to change direction while jumping? Or is that too far away from the original? Also do you think it would be better to make Willy's sprite slightly bigger and perhaps scroll the screens horizontally a bit?
Probably bad ideas but thought I would throw them out there while things are still in their early stages.
Started work on The Detective Game today and ended up changing the size of the sprites and maps back to the original C64 size. It's actually a great size for the DS. So I actually use 32x64 sized sprites but only use 2/3's of the whole sprite area (They are visibly 24x41 pixels). That's what got me thinking about maybe going for a slightly bigger size for MMLL sprites and tiles.
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Bigger sprites would be nice, but... this is what has put me off some of the other versions. I hate a game of this type scrolling. You really do need to see all to plan your route.
With regards the jump mechanic... I would love to have more control. One thing I think we should look into adding is a second control method (manic manic miner mode) that uses acceleration, bouncing of solid walls, and a parabolic curved jump that changes depending on speed. It could be a fun way to play the game... LOL Perhaps with a tight timer that rewards speed of play with bonus points, lives, etc.
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5 hours spent...and playable?
8 hours...and more playable?
What the...have you sold your souls to the devil?...how can you develop that fast? :)
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Ah, but since then I have hit a snag!
Cannot for the life me get the players response to the bloody conveyer belts to be the same as the soddin origina.. god damn it!!!
Ha ha ha ha - if this was not a remake it would be so so easy!!
ps. No conveyors in Horace though LOL
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We had a bunch of reusable code from Warhawk DS which made it *alot* easier to get straight into coding the game. It looks like I won't be doing much more on this game now that the music and sound fx system is in place. So this will be Flash's remake with some help from me on the side.
I don't actually think there is much more I can do on this since it's all gameplay code now and I think Flash wants to code that (once he gets started it's hard to stop him lol). Even if he doesn't mind me working on gameplay code it's really hard to share large chunks of code in asm since it can be a very stylistic artform. With Warhawk it was easier because we could always work on different parts of the game at the same time and while Flash did the gameplay code I found plenty of work on all the other stuff we needed since there was nothing out there for asm coders it was alot of work just getting the basic graphics, audio and interrupt systems in place.
So some of the code I wrote has been reused in the MM project and much of it is not needed because in many ways it's a technically simpler game than Warhawk. eg. No scrolling, no file system, no subscreens, not much need for visual fx or streaming music etc. But I will be here to help in any way I can Flash, and I'm not abandoning the game, but I really think this is a great project for you to concentrate on and now that all the groundwork has been done you can do what you enjoy the most and that's code a game in pure asm ;)
Anyway personally I will be concentrating on TDG now and hope that Flash can learn some things from it. There is still alot of work to be done with TDG that Flash can help with so I do hope he can get his feet wet. Things may change you never know but right now I think this is were we are headed. Don't get me wrong we are still a team and will be helping out on each other's projects but my main goal is for Flash to learn C++ so that one day we can dev for the iPhone.
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So... How does that help my conveyor belt problem LOL ;D
Yeah, HK had already worked hard to establish a great template to enable an ASM project on the DS to be quickly started. So, MM was really easy to get into flow. The level, movement, and simple detection was working within a couple of hours or so.
The MM game is really just a 'fiddle with' game at the moment. What I mean is that it is an easy game to code (apart from the per-pixel sprite detection), so this is just something that I will work on for times when I am lost in TDG (as HK and myself are at different ends of the world, being around at the same time can be tricky).
Saying that, I do not feel the MM is 'my' game, there will still be tons of stuff that HK will help with after the main mechanics are completed, so it is still a joint affair, and hopefully the same will occur with TDG to a degree.
TDG is by far a more important project for me, as i(we) really need this so I can get to grips with C coding and HK's coding methods. MM is already being coded in a more 'C' based structure than Warhawk was initially - see, I am learning HK.
TDG is going to be a longer project as not only is it a much more complicated game, it also (hopefuly) relies on me learning C.. Well, not relies, but will be delayed while I do.. but.. I will!!!!!
The main thing is... 'it will all come out in the wash'
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ps. No conveyors in Horace though LOL
Correct, but the damn dude who made it made sure there was plenty of other platformtypes and levelspecific things to keep a remaker busy. :)
Anyway personally I will be concentrating on TDG now and hope that Flash can learn some things from it. Don't get me wrong we are still a team and will be helping out on each other's projects but my main goal is for Flash to learn C++ so that one day we can dev for the iPhone.
I don't doubt that I'd like to develop for the iPhone but I'm pretty torn about what language to use. I'd prefer to learn C - seems the purest way of working, but I'm not crazy about C - it seems like a confusing language and I'd prefer to skip the hard part of learning such a different language (compared to what I'm already using) and get to the important part as fast as possible - the gameplay. Wow, long sentence. :)
Luckily it's also possible to use GLBasic and that's a lot closer to what I'm already using which means a lot less wasted time.
I'm agonizing over this problematic language choice here (http://retroremakes.com/forum/index.php/topic,636.msg16790.html#msg16790). My own conclusion is a few posts further down.
I haven't decided completely yet though.
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Bigger heads would be nice, but...
Have you received the Willy sprites I've send? Check one of 300 email accounts you have, should be there somewhere. I'm not so sure if they work, they're tiny so let me know. :-X
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Yes, and they are lovely mate.. Not entirely sure that they would not work better with 16 frame though LOL... Sorry I had not replied, the only time I really had today was an hour or so split in 2, and in that time, I was TRYING to get the conveyor problem sorted. I still have not.. It is really driving me nuts.. Such a simple thing and sadly M.Smith did it in a really strange way that really is not intuitive, but.. I also have to get it the same otherwise the current levels will not work.
I got so annoyed with it today that I had willy with the ability to change direction in a jump and move faster l/r... that actually made it a lot more fun to play... Perhaps I should do the game that way and use the original levels as well as the lost levels and make it more impetuous?
Though saying that, whatever i do, I must get the conveyors working as they should.... grrrrrr......
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ps. Lobo, I will send a little demo to you soon mate, once I am happy (though I am married, so happiness is a bit hopefull/hopeless)
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I don't doubt that I'd like to develop for the iPhone but I'm pretty torn about what language to use. I'd prefer to learn C - seems the purest way of working, but I'm not crazy about C - it seems like a confusing language and I'd prefer to skip the hard part of learning such a different language (compared to what I'm already using) and get to the important part as fast as possible - the gameplay. Wow, long sentence. :)
I'm agonizing over this problematic language choice
The simple answer is the same one as I face, learn C++
I hate it for what it is, but... needs must.. and all things considered (except objective C), it is not THAT bad..
Perhaps we can help each other?
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Yes, and they are THE BEST EVER!...
:D
Cool, Ok then cause I wasn't sure, that lil guy is such a bitc..tricky to make dammit (and no 16 frames, please!! 8 is enough!).
Take your time though with conveyor belt, I would bloody cut that thing out completely. ;D
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I'm a going to create a 6 channels mod for the main theme and trying to hold the XM file under 250KB each (if they want more styles). The first xm is a about Reggie and is not trying to create a another techno/Synth track because I want to trying to do something different.
The XM mod is now around just over 200KB with mixing 16 and 8 bit samples. Patterns itself does not extend the file very much.
The version I sent to PM to Flash and Headkaze might change a little bit in the end, due samples.
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The simple answer is the same one as I face, learn C++
I hate it for what it is, but... needs must.. and all things considered (except objective C), it is not THAT bad..
Perhaps we can help each other?
Right now I'm more tempted to just go the GLBasic route but I haven't installed anything yet.
I have thought about installing C at work though - just to see if I can bang a bit of learning into my head while there. Now, you say you're going to learn C++ and everyone else says they're using "normal" C. I have to ask this because I just don't have a clue: does it matter?...can you program C in a C++ package?...what does the iPhone/iPods expect? What will you be installing yourself?
See...that's how little I know. ;)
...well, I do know that I don't like OOP so if I ever get started I won't be doing that.
I would like to collaborate on a project sometime but I'm just afraid, that even when I get around to it, I'll either slow you down, not pull my weight or be left behind in the dust.
But let's see what happens. :)
I'm really impressed with how far you are with MMLL already btw. :D
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Well, C is (as i posted) a hard thing for an ASM coder to get to grips with, especially Classes. But, the truth is that you do need to move on sometimes to explore more avenues. GLBasic is perhaps closer to C than ASM, so you do have a good headstart on it.
With regards C++ on the iPhone.. You don't need to use C++ or (more to the point) Objective C to code a game. C++ and OC are very usefull for applications and OC is great if you want to utilise the iPhone as a whole across apps etc... But.. for game coding (and speed, I am reliably informed by my latest book), C is the best way to go as xCode creates simple code based on C code than any abstraction. So, C is the one to learn for iPhone, but... it is perhaps better to jump in with C++ for portability.
If you ever get time to collaborate on a project or even work on one and help each other out, I am sure both myself and (thankfully) HK would love to be involved.
I am finding walking in C tricky at the moment, but.. day by day, things are getting a little clearer.. (except Classes LOL)
(ps.. clicked modify, rather than reply to your post - oops! TIT)
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(ps.. clicked modify, rather than reply to your post - oops! TIT)
Meddler! :D
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Back in like 96,7,8 ish or so I had a fine book as thick as my head called C/C++ bible (they really use to name these things like that back then, sheesh). Parts with C were Ok and I was able to follow the examples, understand the structure and logic behind it and compile it even via Edit.com or some funny looking command line crap. Heh, then it hits the part with C++ and starts yapping about boolean and object oriented stuff and I go back to playing Dungeon Keeper.
The thing with GLbasic is pretty cool though, it's...basic, I mean you have GOTO and stuff :D. Stick with that if you're unsure with the rest just wrap your head around logical problems of the Iphone in itself (for example, I still can't tell for sure how the flippin between landscape and portrait is set up resolution wise but it might be in readmes :P).
Oy, Flash, you can send the tiles for the MM, if you have any, I might have time to do that in bulk, I don't think there's too much of them (less than 3 million probably?).
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there is about 4 million tiles... :D
I am ok working with the tiles I have at the moment. Each level is a png, so, it is not tied to tiles as such, just that everything that is 'detectable' has to stand out from the rest. but... I am at such an early stage that (though i would LOVE some great Lobo touches) I can still work with what I have for a few weeks or so.
Though, I may well scream at you for another animated sprite when I add the 'creatures' to MMLL... so, be warned!
Thanks mate......
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Ye, I guessed about 6 millions as well :-X.
Anyhoo, tiny miny they are from what I see so when you get them~send it over. What's another animated thing, one of those dog's heads that float up and down? :D
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Ye, I guessed about 6 millions as well :-X.
Anyhoo, tiny miny they are from what I see so when you get them~send it over. What's another animated thing, one of those dog's heads that float up and down? :D
Well, it is more of a turtle pushing it's head out LOL
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ta hell you say, that sounds quite satanic.
:D
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We are actually coding TDG in "C" and using C++ classes. The reason why I chose to use classes is so that when it comes to "Objective C" Flash will know what a class is and how to use one. AFAIK "Objective C" is just "C" with classes. Why they didn't just use a C++ instead is beyond me but there must be some advantage or reason for going with Objective C. But anyway you can use standard C in C++ so it's up to you to use classes or not.
Classes are actually quite easy to grasp after a while and once you get programming in OOP it eventually grows on you and makes alot of sense in the long run. I started coding in Pascal and C back in the early DOS days (actually I did code some small C programs for the Amiga before then) and back then everything was coding using "functions" and usually in a single large file which meant searching through hundreds of lines of code to find what your looking for. When I went to Uni they were teaching OOP and I picked it up pretty quickly so I encourage any coder to give it try.
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Oh sh!t! - you've actually started that platformer.
I hope it takes a long time to do :D - I'd like to have Horace done before this one is done (...and so would you ;))
YES!!! So would I!
:)
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I'm really impressed with how far you are with MMLL already btw. :D
As if it was yesterday! I remember, it was like this.........
.....zzzz....
;)
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Back in like 96,7,8 ish or so I had a fine book as thick as my head called C/C++ bible (they really use to name these things like that back then, sheesh).
LOL, I just bought a massive book called "OpenGL SuperBible",
So, even now - nothing changes!!!
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LOL, I just bought a massive book called "OpenGL SuperBible",
I will look at ordering that too as the other book we pre-ordered wont be here until May I believe.
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I wish I could find my other one which had even better title (Black Book of Programming)! :)
However, it was written in a funny tone with introduction from John (Carmack) as it does mention Quake a lot in it and it's rather fun read actually compared to other books of this type.