More homebrew on Nintendo DS ?

PypeBros · **on:** February 21, 2018, 08:39:39 pm

Hello, everyone.

I've been doing some NDS homebrew coding over the last 10 years. And as far as I'm concerned, I'm not willing to stop. Something with that machine makes me feel like I was programming a C64 with better everything. I've been developing games, but also Sprite/Tiles editor, level map editor and even an animation editor that suits my "art" style better.

DL: School Rush -- Apple Assault

So is there anybody here that still has a NDS ready for play testing ?
Is there anybody who would be interested by a few tutorials on the editors used to do this ?
I've started the process of presenting the source code of the game engine and the scripting used to create those games, one chunk at a time. Anybody interested by that ?

Anybody else still doing hobby (game?) development on the NDS platform ?

headkaze · **Reply #1 on:** February 21, 2018, 11:26:52 pm

Welcome to the boards PypeBros!

Just so everyone here knows PypeBros is a guy I've known on the gbadev forums for a long time. I thought why not invite him over here?

As for your awesome game mate... I don't actually have an NDS to test with at the moment. Hopefully some of the other guys on here do though?

Keep us updated on your progress it really does look like an awesome game.

Lobo · **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2018, 09:29:21 pm

Welcome, Pype.

That looks cool, I think I saw your work on DS or such years ago but my memory is misty somewhat.

I still have me olde DS loaded with R4 (except when kids are chasing pokemans) loaded with a ton of homebrew, I can do testing if needed.
Dunno what is happening about DS nowadays, whether anyone is doing anything but I see that some of those sites are still active but likely more focused on 3ds and newer models. I know via twitter that smealum and some guys are doing some cracking and snapping around homebrew launchers for 3ds but can't tell exactly how as I don't have that one and such.

PypeBros · **Reply #3 on:** February 22, 2018, 09:46:32 pm

Thank you both.

As for the game, this is so far two separate games. A trick of mine to keep the action focused on something that can be played for what it is rather than keeping the status "demo/preview" for years. I have however the dream to merge them in a coherent epic platformer somewhen.

For the DS, I got the later models (DSi and 3DS), and somehow see the updates of smealum and friends progress, but I can't get real interest towards that platform. First, because of the feeling that running homebrew on them is a constant battle against Nintendo upgrades. Compared to the ease of use of a R4 (clone), breaking one's way accross the security layers of the 3DS is non-trivial and often requires that you have the right firmware with the right cartridge at the right time. Given that it takes me between 3 and 5 years to make a game, the 3DS platform is therefore too volatile. And finally, I really love the tiles + sprites programming model used in the original NDS. Afaik, this is gone with the 3DS that looks like "just another openGL pipeline". I'm not even sure they still have the sound channels working like the NDS (except in NDS compatibility mode, of course).

Lobo · **Reply #4 on:** February 22, 2018, 09:54:14 pm

Quote from: PypeBros on February 22, 2018, 09:46:32 pm

For the DS, I got the later models (DSi and 3DS), and somehow see the updates of smealum and friends progress, but I can't get real interest towards that platform. First, because of the feeling that running homebrew on them is a constant battle against Nintendo upgrades. Compared to the ease of use of a R4 (clone), breaking one's way accross the security layers of the 3DS is non-trivial and often requires that you have the right firmware with the right cartridge at the right time.

That's exactly what I noticed too. The lack of people actually doing homebrew for later DS models (especially compared to how frickin enormous was DS scene)-due to constant breaking of launchers-due to nintendo patching and forced updates, it just looks like ongoing battle when you see that original DS works right off the bat-done deal kinda way. Kinda pity tho but it obviously less interest out there in making later models more 'homebrew' ready, except of course, for the work of smea and those other guys, so in turn it just feels academic now with patching/breaking/patching cycle but no actual support from people who would jump into it and make some games and such.

PypeBros · **Reply #5 on:** February 23, 2018, 06:40:16 pm

I was just looking This video about GBA homebrew... It's interesting how the guy presented homebrew in 200x as "a way for wannabe game developer to make a convincing portfolio" in an era where publishing on platforms like Steam was not an option. I'd say what exist today that gets the closest to NDS homebrew is #pico8. But man, I love the hardware of the NDS so much better, I can't convince myself to work on a fantasy console instead.

Lobo · **Reply #6 on:** February 23, 2018, 08:16:15 pm

Frankly, when I started messing with DS, I wanted to see things on it which were overlooked by Nintendo like a nice drawing app, text reader, crazy left field games and of course emulators as well (which of course I did not expect from nintendo). I never saw it really as a way to build portfolio of any kind but just join in and see what things people can do, which ended up being far more than I expected. Going through the library of homebrew released over the years, it always strikes me just how much passion was in there and I can hardly think anyone was really thinking of 'making it out there' with these little oddities (tho, some did happen to move from DS to more commercial waters like 'colors' did).

Why is pico called a console, btw (unless its just for fun)? I only had a passing glance at it but it looks like it works on desktop as usual (win or mac, dunno) in a fashion of those adventure type engines which requires the main program to distribute in order to load up games made with it? It does look interesting on its own but yeah, DS is something else...

PypeBros · **Reply #7 on:** February 23, 2018, 08:30:32 pm

What I found amazing about the NDS homebrew era, is how much diversity there was among the people participating, and yes, somehow the passion that was driving us. I mostly followed the French-speaking forums "dev-fr.org" and there were both young gamers porting their favourite flash game, seasoned programmers porting their nostalgic favourite games, young web developers making applications pretending that their NDS would be a hand-held personnal assistant (subway maps, etc.). Easily the whole range between 12 to 42 years old, I'd say.

I know some of them have moved to androïd development. One of them has entered Nintendo Research.

So, yes, granted the "making my portfolio for later" was likely not the motivation for most of us.

Lobo · **Reply #8 on:** February 23, 2018, 08:39:56 pm

Agreed, there were people of all different interests/backgrounds doing homebrew on ds, I remember working with Alekmaul who was into NES/GG/SMS or Kukulcan who is a CPC fanatic (

) or guys here more or less either C64 or ZX or something completely unlike Nintendo actually. And a funny thing is that they all stumbled on DS, far more than PSP tho PSP did have its own scene but incomparable in interest, quality and quantity (no offense tho, most of the output was really emulators from what I remember). I had PSP (and GP2X tho

) before DS but oddly ended up with DS at the end, so there's gotta be something more in there than just dual screens that made it so interesting.

headkaze · **Reply #9 on:** February 23, 2018, 11:14:57 pm

I think there's been a huge missed opportunity for Nintendo over the years. Instead of making it easy for home brewers to write stuff for their hardware they do everything in their power to lock it down. I never could understand why Nintendo didn't embrace the home brew community. I understand the issues with piracy but if they made the hardware available for custom apps then perhaps there wouldn't be a need for hardware like the R4.

I actually really liked the GBA, since it's what got me started in the home brew scene, and then of course, the Nintendo DS. Writing Warhawk DS in 100% ARM ASM with Flash (with graphics by Lobo and music by SpaceFractal) was some of the most fun I've ever had and my first major collaboration. I think schools should be teaching kids ASM using the Nintendo DS. It is such a great way to learn low level programming and assembly. NDS is the last hardware, I believe, to support the 2D sprite system (based in part on the NES hardware), and in addition introduced basic 3D hardware. With Warhawk DS we used the 2D hardware while smealum's impressive Arsenal DS used the 3D hardware. I think later Nintendo hardware removed the 2D system which is a great shame as it's such a great way to learn game programming.

Incidentally we did get a chance to play with the NDS's 3D hardware when we started playing with Jungool (originally called Triball). Unfortunately though with the limitations of the hardware it didn't fit well with that sort of game (Box2D physics / large painted backgrounds rather than tiles). But not only did we use the NDS for an early prototype of Jungool we also started an early version of Windoze Solitaire on it. Both of these games ended up being ported and released to Apple's iOS.

Over the years it has got to the point where I've given up on Nintendo and do not want to support them anymore. I don't like closed systems. I've also moved away from iOS to Android for the same reason. But as far as writing games both Flash and I have moved on from ASM / C++ to C# and Unity. That being said with hardware like the NEXT there are still opportunities to work on limited hardware. For me personally though I want to concentrate on cross-platform engines and not dedicate myself to any particular company or hardware.

I do understand the lure of the NDS and so I can't really knock it. It's just a shame that unlike most other platforms Nintendo doesn't seem to think budding developers are a valuable asset to have.

Lobo · **Reply #10 on:** February 24, 2018, 02:36:46 am

Quote from: headkaze on February 23, 2018, 11:14:57 pm

I think there's been a huge missed opportunity for Nintendo over the years. Instead of making it easy for home brewers to write stuff for their hardware they do everything in their power to lock it down. I never could understand why Nintendo didn't embrace the home brew community. I understand the issues with piracy but if they made the hardware available for custom apps then perhaps there wouldn't be a need for hardware like the R4.

Yep, they really could've been the first to actually grab a few developers outside the 'usual suspects' as there was no way for them to stop ongoing print of various slot1 cards and thus piracy. They could've legitimize the games they thought 'fitting' their req out of such a huge catalog of homebrews, offer developers a chance to be visible at least for a moment, but no. Methinks they only started doing something of the kind with Wii by the end of its life cycle which is not much cause until then both MS and Sony have decided that its smarter move to look upon smaller developers instead ignoring them (plus Wii died

). Dunno how it is now for Switch, I notice from time to time that some smaller devs are getting on the platform but..could be 'invitation only' or 'only famous/popular/whatever' criteria.

Quote from: headkaze on February 23, 2018, 11:14:57 pm

I actually really liked the GBA, since it's what got me started in the home brew scene, and then of course, the Nintendo DS. Writing Warhawk DS in 100% ARM ASM with Flash (with graphics by Lobo and music by SpaceFractal) was some of the most fun I've ever had and my first major collaboration. I think schools should be teaching kids ASM using the Nintendo DS. It is such a great way to learn low level programming and assembly. NDS is the last hardware, I believe, to support the 2D sprite system (based in part on the NES hardware), and in addition introduced basic 3D hardware. With Warhawk DS we used the 2D hardware while smealum's impressive Arsenal DS used the 3D hardware. I think later Nintendo hardware removed the 2D system which is a great shame as it's such a great way to learn game programming.

Yeah, that was fun, only now do I realize what was actually possible on that *little* system, I mean we did push some major stuff in there which I then took for granted but seeing now all sorts of limits on various other systems, must say that was really powerful stuff.

Quote from: headkaze on February 23, 2018, 11:14:57 pm

Over the years it has got to the point where I've given up on Nintendo and do not want to support them anymore. I don't like closed systems. I've also moved away from iOS to Android for the same reason. But as far as writing games both Flash and I have moved on from ASM / C++ to C# and Unity. That being said with hardware like the NEXT there are still opportunities to work on limited hardware. For me personally though I want to concentrate on cross-platform engines and not dedicate myself to any particular company or hardware.

I do understand the lure of the NDS and so I can't really knock it. It's just a shame that unlike most other platforms Nintendo doesn't seem to think budding developers are a valuable asset to have.

Yeah, as I mentioned they did have *some kinda* program for smaller guys since Wii, I even signed up to see what is it about and how it works, just out of interest and dunno, maybe if they have the same rules (no real rules really, just must conform to nintendo standards really but even that is a grey area-like family oriented, blahblah) for that Switch..maybe it would be worth it. But yeah, nowadays, for most of people its really much easier solution to bloody go cross platform, make desktop games and if opportunity arises perhaps a port to console A or B.

I find stuff like Next interesting too, tho..a bit cautious about it still, don't wanna see it end up as '5 devs who got kit made 5 games and that is all, goodnight' kinda scenario, methinks they will really need to pull people from the outside which is not easy if larger groups of people find the platform to be some 'odd retro thing with limited life span'. For me, smaller fun games on limited systems is fine and the rest...straight to desktop baby, hit Windows and if more than 5 people who have OSX and 3 who have Linux anything raise hand, the better.

sverx · **Reply #11 on:** February 24, 2018, 10:27:07 am

Welcome, Pype

I still have my NDS and still remember everything about how to program it (well, quite...

). It's a shame the NDS scene disappeared so quicky and, well, I agree the 3DS hasn't the same charm. For instance, I greatly prefer coding on bare metal, which is something you can't do on a 3DS, if I got it correctly. Also, if you're interested in GBA too, it's just slightly less powerful - of course has a single screen too, but it's nonetheless interesting to program (the most important difference IMHO is that on GBA you've got a ROM cartridge, not a filesystem storage, which means you simply don't need to get data from disk to RAM, and also that your code won't be limited by RAM too...)

OK, let me know if you need more details

Cheers

spacefractal · **Reply #12 on:** February 24, 2018, 06:23:40 pm

dont forget we also created Manic Miner - The Lost Levels for DS. What a fun project its was. Im still thinks its was that game im did have most fun to do music with. Not Jungool, which sadly (with Winsol) does no longer work on current devices. iOS11 nuked 32bit support, which cause both games no longer works (they dont even show on AppStore at all).

Yes DS have something others Nintendo dosent have, and Nintendo try to compact them. Howover its property best to support a device, which Nintendo does no longer support for, here DS can still been great.

howover im have stopped both Android and iOS due various issues, property when Apple dedicated my Mac was too old, then im gave up. 64bit was also a hell as well. On Android glbasic is actuelly required to been moved to a Android Studio project, if its gonna to move with newest SDK, but im diddent do that. Android can also been hell to code for, due various devices, compatible etc.

That means im pulled my games out of Google Play, and also soon iOS later this year (im wont update them anymore). Then its Steam all the way.

PS. Yes im saw your PM. The music you heard is from a old Space taxi remake, that is also defuct as well. You cant play it anymore. Its was wrote in Java 1.4 (and Flash 5), and was a inspiration from the Amiga version of Space Taxi (which was a PD game by Andreas). But its a game im plans to recreate again on Next and/or Windows. Im have recently done a lots of Dual AY tunes from Dual AY, which is fun to do as well.

PypeBros · **Reply #13 on:** February 25, 2018, 07:21:04 pm

Many of the reasons you mentioned echo in my own approach to homebrew. I find bare metal programming extremely enjoyable and satisfying, especially when you feel (like on the NDS) that everything is meant to make game programming easier. I mean, there is no need here to worry about syncrhonizing multiple threads between graphics rendering, gameplay logic, sound mixing and input probing -- part of which would require library tweaking on PC -- to get the job done. You have hardware do the sound mixing, you've got hardware doing image compositing ... And yes, I feel the appeal of programming a raster interrupt effect "for real, like an Amiga guru" (although I haven't really made use of it in my game engine).

I've asked the question to a few former members of dev-fr, none of them mentioned making up a portfolio. It was all about the freshness and the awesomeness of programming for a real console as opposed to database / webdesign / whatever daytim programming (but I've got no answers from then-teenagers so far)

PypeBros · **Reply #14 on:** February 25, 2018, 09:54:06 pm

Quote from: Lobo on February 22, 2018, 09:29:21 pm

I still have me olde DS loaded with R4 (except when kids are chasing pokemans) loaded with a ton of homebrew, I can do testing if needed.

Some feedback on School Rush would be welcome, indeed. I think the gameplay is almost done now, but it is hard to find people that can have a fresh eye on the game so late in the development. If you can convince you pokemen hunters to have a look at it, I'm curious to know how they reacted to the game as well (after all, 30+ people should only be the target audience for the "hardcade" mode ^^")

Lobo · **Reply #15 on:** February 25, 2018, 11:44:44 pm

Quote from: PypeBros on February 25, 2018, 09:54:06 pm

Some feedback on School Rush would be welcome, indeed. I think the gameplay is almost done now, but it is hard to find people that can have a fresh eye on the game so late in the development. If you can convince you pokemen hunters to have a look at it, I'm curious to know how they reacted to the game as well (after all, 30+ people should only be the target audience for the "hardcade" mode ^^")

No problems, just give me the link and I'll try it out, perhaps pokemans enthusiasts can also give it a spin as I suspect they have better reflexes than I do nowadays.

PypeBros · **Reply #16 on:** February 26, 2018, 04:38:33 pm

Quote from: Lobo on February 25, 2018, 11:44:44 pm

just give me the link and I'll try it out

Doh. I just realised that the green "download" button on my blog post wasn't pointing to the the .nds file. Silly me. That's now fixed, and I put the download links for both files on the top post of this thread as well.

Lobo · **Reply #17 on:** February 27, 2018, 01:34:11 am

Quote from: PypeBros on February 26, 2018, 04:38:33 pm

Doh. I just realised that the green "download" button on my blog post wasn't pointing to the the .nds file. Silly me. That's now fixed, and I put the download links for both files on the top post of this thread as well.

Got it, will check it out tomorrow.

Lobo · **Reply #18 on:** February 28, 2018, 10:32:58 pm

Alright, played both games on AK2 yesterday and today and its very impressive, gfx/music and controls, very smooth. I'm not too good with platformers anymore frankly tho I did get to level 2 in school rush. The only thing in school rush is the lack of energy bar of the sort, can't tell how long I have to live and perhaps, when you're hit to give it like a 1-2 seconds invulnerability to pass the enemies which are too close to you, otherwise they keep hurting you as it is now (if they're too close you are trapped basically). But, yeah, all in all very cool games.

PypeBros · **Reply #19 on:** March 01, 2018, 04:44:41 pm

Quote from: Lobo on February 28, 2018, 10:32:58 pm

The only thing in school rush is the lack of energy bar of the sort, can't tell how long I have to live

Oh, actually, there is an energy bar. This is the Bilou-blue bookmark on the bottom screen.

Quote

perhaps, when you're hit to give it like a 1-2 seconds invulnerability to pass the enemies which are too close to you, otherwise they keep hurting you as it is now

The initial gameplay for Bilou was more trying to make you think about how to move past enemies and had a puzzle aspect. It is almost inexistant in SchoolRush, though, so I guess I could relax the gameplay a little bit and provide some more invulnerability frames for the player.

Glad you liked it, anyway ^_^ It's an honor from someone who worked on the WarHawk port

Lobo · **Reply #20 on:** March 01, 2018, 09:00:23 pm

Quote from: PypeBros on March 01, 2018, 04:44:41 pm

Oh, actually, there is an energy bar. This is the Bilou-blue bookmark on the bottom screen. The initial gameplay for Bilou was more trying to make you think about how to move past enemies and had a puzzle aspect. It is almost inexistant in SchoolRush, though, so I guess I could relax the gameplay a little bit and provide some more invulnerability frames for the player.

Ah, cool, my mistake, I kept looking at the top screen and totally missed the bookmark.

As for invulnerability, something simple like 1 sec delay so player can jump over the enemy and escape in narrow places (like between two walls and such).
It is a very cool game, obviously a lot of work has gone into it, pity this was not released back in the heyday of DS but its never too late.

Quote from: PypeBros on March 01, 2018, 04:44:41 pm

Glad you liked it, anyway ^_^ It's an honor from someone who worked on the WarHawk port

Thanks, always nice to hear people remember some work from 300 years ago, or was it just yesterday?

sverx · **Reply #21 on:** March 05, 2018, 09:18:32 am

Quote from: Lobo on March 01, 2018, 09:00:23 pm

Thanks, always nice to hear people remember some work from 300 years ago, or was it just yesterday?

To me, it seems like it was before the latest ice age

PypeBros · **Reply #22 on:** March 05, 2018, 03:37:20 pm

Quote from: sverx on March 05, 2018, 09:18:32 am

To me, it seems like it was before the latest ice age

Yeah, you completely changed to another platform, now, haven't you ?

sverx · **Reply #23 on:** March 06, 2018, 08:32:13 am

Quote from: PypeBros on March 05, 2018, 03:37:20 pm

Yeah, you completely changed to another platform, now, haven't you ?

The matter is that by the time I had learnt all the DS and GBA's secrets (LOL) - gbadev community disappeared, and I felt like speaking to the desert. When I found my old-lost SMS I discovered a great community (SMSPower.org) and I dove into it. Anyway now that I learnt all the SMS/GG secrets I feel I need something new to play with. I'm reading MegaDrive technical documents these days, let's see what it brings

PypeBros · **Reply #24 on:** March 06, 2018, 10:10:05 pm

Quote from: sverx on March 06, 2018, 08:32:13 am

Anyway now that I learnt all the SMS/GG secrets I feel I need something new to play with. I'm reading MegaDrive technical documents these days, let's see what it brings

Makes a lot of sense. I felt some attraction towards NES myself over the years, although it remained theoretical. For my graphical style and my brother's musical scores, the NDS feels best suited. I could likely do it on SNES as well (or SMD), but I bet I'd be consuming so much time getting familiar with the hardware/sdk that the game development effort would be reset again. If I ever make a SNES port of some of my games, I want it to run with graphics made with Sprite Editor for DS ;-)

Sokurah · **Reply #25 on:** March 06, 2018, 10:17:40 pm

Quote from: sverx on March 06, 2018, 08:32:13 am

The matter is that by the time I had learnt all the DS and GBA's secrets (LOL) - gbadev community disappeared, and I felt like speaking to the desert.

I know how you feel. I'm currently working on an arcade game (for actual arcade hardware, so I test using MAME) but I have NO idea how big the community is for things like this, so I'm just plowing ahead with it and trying to make a good game. Maybe there's only 10 people out there that will enjoy it ... but that doesn't really matter as I'm mostly doing it for myself anyway

sverx · **Reply #26 on:** March 07, 2018, 11:17:33 am

yeah but I think that not having at least a few people that you can exchange opinion with, ask feedback/support... well, it makes that much harder and less intriguing, even if I agree we mostly do what we do for our own enjoyment...

(does that sentence makes any sense?)

PypeBros · **Reply #27 on:** March 07, 2018, 04:42:06 pm

Seconding sverx here. I wasn't too worried about the GBA/DS community disappearing as long as I had workmates having a linker-capable NDS themselves and being happy to give my new builds a try every now and then. Since I changed to another workplace, having noone really noticing that I'm doing a release is a bit disappointing. Rather than enjoying the feedbacks, it turns out like "why am I even doing that" blues. That hopefully goes away when I have the opportunity to get actual people playing the game, hopefully.

It has been even more exacerbated these last years as I'm mostly pushing updates to the gameplay. As you all know, we tend to turn expert in our own games and get blind to their own flaws. I'm extremely honoured to have received detailed feedback from seasoned game designers. But each of these were quite energy-consuming to get, and did not necessarily came where I most needed it.

(yay. I'm now running on ZX80!)

Lobo · **Reply #28 on:** March 08, 2018, 08:30:56 pm

Quote from: sverx on March 07, 2018, 11:17:33 am

yeah but I think that not having at least a few people that you can exchange opinion with, ask feedback/support... well, it makes that much harder and less intriguing, even if I agree we mostly do what we do for our own enjoyment...

(does that sentence makes any sense?)

Quote from: Sokurah on March 06, 2018, 10:17:40 pm

I know how you feel. I'm currently working on an arcade game (for actual arcade hardware, so I test using MAME) but I have NO idea how big the community is for things like this, so I'm just plowing ahead with it and trying to make a good game. Maybe there's only 10 people out there that will enjoy it ... but that doesn't really matter as I'm mostly doing it for myself anyway

Ye, even tho a lot of people do it for their own pleasure, you still need some audience to share that with. To me, the size of the audience is less important than passion behind it, tho truth to be told - DS scene had both, numbers and actual passionate people about it, so many who didn't mind swapping that slot 1 card (or 2-3) on the train while commuting, just to try out your latest beta. That kinda thing is worth it methinks.

For example, I was downloading a lot of A2600 homebrew from atariage for years and at first it was a really small community which grew in time to get numbers as well as passion and yea, I mean who in his right mind would be trying to push A2600 game in 21 century unless there was real

behind it. It goes as far as people still printing cartridges for some of these games, limited as it is but there is always someone who wants that and its worth doing it even for only 20 peeps.
So, methinks, doing SMS or Z80 arcade or even DS/GBA today (well Sverx and co released Waimanu recently on GBA cart) is worth it really if there is still at least a few passionate folks out there.

PypeBros · **Reply #29 on:** March 08, 2018, 08:46:11 pm

Yep, the current rise of the NES homebrew (and apparently SMS homebrew) communities make me hope that I'm not developing for me alone, and that some day, people who grew with the Nintendo DS will enter a part of their lifetime where they'll want to code for it themselves. We had a super-strong community. It was so amazing that I just had to post a news on one French board to see it translated in 5 or 6 different languages and relayed over the world without having to raise the smallest finger.

I'm convinced there are some people still interested, but we no longer have any place to meet, imho. Partly because there wasn't one place to meet in the first time: we were so many that we could simply keep in touch with our local peers without worrying about building a worldwide community.

Someone (I think one of you) mentioned two other person still doing homebrew for DS (or GBA?) over the last week. Maybe on twitter. But our new communication channels have a flaw when it comes to memory. Impossible to force the websites to show it once more...